boundaries – Page 7 – Real Social Skills

Boundaries with people who combine racist/sexist/etc statements with a subject change

February 16, 2014June 21, 2021 Real Social Skills

A reader asked:

So, I keep running across this, and don’t know how to handle it: person a talks about subject x, and then gets sick of talking about it and sets boundary of ‘stop talking to me about this’. which is fine, except often this is right after person A said something racist or ableist or sexist or fatphobic while discussing said topic. Is it okay to call them out on this, even though they set a boundary that they’re done with the topic?

realsocialskills said:

I think it depends a lot on the situation, and the particular relationship you’re talking about.

Relationships and obligations are complicated, and so is the question of what is and is not an ok boundary.

One thing I’d say is that if you’re calling someone out a lot in a friendship, there’s probably something going wrong. Calling people on things is generally a somewhat hostile act. I don’t mean that pejoratively, sometimes it’s absolutely vital to be hostile. But if you’re finding that you’re frequently angry with a friend because of their attitudes towards marginalized groups, and that you usually strongly want to address this forcefully, it might be worth reconsidering whether you actually like them enough to have that kind of relationship. Particularly if this has been going on for a long time and things haven’t gotten better. It might be time to create some distance; you might be realizing that you don’t actually want to be that close to them.

If most of your interactions with someone end up being attempts to correct their worldview, you probably don’t actually like them that much. And close friendships need to be between people who like and respect one another in a deep way.

Friends can and do criticize one another and point out ways we’re going wrong. Everyone is wrong about something important that hurts people, and friends can really help one another to figure this out and be right about more things. But this is a respectful and mutual process between equals, not something that happens where one person transforms another. It’s also something that needs to happen consensually.

It also might be worth naming it explicitly, even if it isn’t a close relationship. For instance:

Bob: Cars cars cars cars. Long rant about cars. And also trucks.
James: Cars! Cars cars trucks cars. Wheels.
Bob: Wheels. And also axels. Women who think they can drive big trucks are such r@$%@$%s. Argh, sick of cars now. Let’s talk about something else.
James: Ok, we don’t have to talk about cars anymore, but that comment was really sexist and ableist and I’d appreciate it if you stopped saying things like that around me.

In this case, James is respecting the Bill’s decision to drop the subject, but still addressing the offensive comment.

James explicitly says that he’s willing to stop talking about cars
And then he does, in fact, stop talking about cars.
But he doesn’t let the hateful comments go, either
But he also doesn’t start an argument about the content or continue an argument about cars
Eg, James doesn’t say anything like “Bob, why do you have to be so sexist about that? My sister’s way better at driving than you’ll ever be. That’s why she wins the truck races and you totaled your car last month.”

James also isn’t necessarily trying to fix Bob or to make him see the error of his ways. He’s objecting, and asserting a boundary.

If it’s a closer relationship, the conversation might be more like:

Bob: Wheels. And also axels. Women who think they can drive big trucks are such r@$%@$%s. Argh, sick of cars now. Let’s talk about something else.
James: It really bothers me when you say things like that. Those comments are sexist and ableist, and I know things like that hurt people.
Bob: What’s the big deal? Isn’t it just an expression?
James then attempts to explain why it’s a big deal

When people are open to this kind of conversation, explaining things can be really good. If they’re not open to this kind of conversation, trying to force them to have it is likely to hurt you and unlikely to change them. If they’re not willing to engage these issues, all you can really do is set a boundary about how they behave around you.

Identifying bad friends

February 1, 2014June 21, 2021 Real Social Skills

A reader asked:

How to weed out bad friends?

realsocialskills said:

Here are some rules of thumb:

Good friends are people you like. If you’re trying to figure out whether you like someone, here are things to keep in mind:

Do you like being around them? Is interaction with them usually pleasant?
How do you talk about them when they’re not there? If most of what you say is a complaint of some sort, you probably don’t actually like them very much
It’s ok not to like people
But if you don’t like someone, it’s probably better not to try to be their close friend or spend lots of time with them

Good friends are people who like you:

Does this person enjoy your company?
Do they respect you when you’re there? If most of what they say is insulting, they probably don’t like you.
If they make a lot of jokes at your expense that hurt you, and mock you if you tell them to knock it off, they probably don’t like you very much
If they act like they’re doing you a favor by being your friend, they probably don’t like you very much
Life is a lot better when you surround yourself with folks who like you, and minimize entanglements with people who don’t

Good friends don’t creep on each other:

People who insist on touching you in ways you don’t like probably aren’t very good friends
People who won’t stop hitting on you or making sexual comments probably aren’t very good friends
People who insist on talking to you about explicit sexual topics you aren’t comfortable hearing about probably aren’t very good friends.
People who make a lot of explicit comments about your sex life or sexual desires without caring whether you want to discuss that with them aren’t good friends
In some social circles, you might come under tremendous pressure to laugh this kind of thing off
But it’s not ok, and life is better when you don’t tolerate it, and when you are able to create a social circle of people who don’t tolerate it

Good friends understand that you have a life outside them:

Friends aren’t always available when friends want them to be, because they have a life and other things that matter
Good friends understand that you spend time with other people, and have emotionally significant relationships that they aren’t part of
They also understand that you have other things you need to attend to, such as work, school, taking care of your health, etc
And they don’t treat it as an offense against them when you spend money on yourself, even when you’re buying something they wish they could afford but can’t
Friends who expect to always unconditionally come first in your life are not good friends. (Even if they think they put you first. Even if it’s true, but it usually isn’t.)

Pay attention to your feelings:

If you feel horrible about yourself every time you see someone, it’s probably not a good friendship
If how you feel about someone changes a lot, there’s probably something really wrong. It might be fixable, it might be possible to work around it, but it’s important to figure out what it is
If how you feel about someone is dramatically different when you’re with them than when you’re not, something is wrong and it’s important to figure out what it is
For instance, if you consistently dread hanging out with someone, but enjoy it when you do, something is wrong (it might not be a problem with them, it might be social anxiety or something else. But it’s important to figure out what’s going on)
And when you swear up and down that you like someone, but you also avoid them and don’t feel good when you spend time with them, you probably don’t actually like them as much as you think you do. Even if they have really great qualities.

Sometimes it’s not a bad friend. Sometimes it’s a bad friendship that can be improved by renegotiating boundaries:

For instance, some people are good to spend time with, but not good to spend tons of time with. Captain Awkward has a good post on small doses friends
Some people act dramatically different in public than in private. Spending time with them mostly or entirely in the setting you like them in can make the friendship a lot better
Some people are nice to interact with in person, but not online, or vice versa. Being someone’s friend doesn’t mean you have to discuss politics with them on facebook, or that you have to engage with their derailing comments on everything you post. Similarly, talking to someone online doesn’t mean you have to go to their noisy parties
Some friendships aren’t really personal relationships so much as alliances in which you trade favors. That’s an ok kind of relationship to have, so long as it’s actually equal and not exploitation. Trying to convert an alliance into a close friendship tends to end poorly though, especially if only one person wants that

When a friend won’t take no for an answer

January 28, 2014June 21, 2021 Real Social Skills

A reader asked:

Hiya, I often don’t like being touched or having people get very close or breathe on me, I also can’t handle too many people talking at once etc. (I have actually suspected that I have autism for a while now)

But one of my close friends always gets really offended when I ask her to stop touching me or to leave me alone. It’s gotten to the point where she stresses me out so much I try to avoid her all day. What can I do? I enjoy her company sometimes but she really pushes my boundaries…

realsocialskills said:

I think it might help to identify when you enjoy her company. What kind of circumstances is it in, and can you make more of your interaction with her happen in that kind of setting?

Some people are nice to spend time with in some contexts, but don’t treat you well in others.

One way this can play out is that some people respect physical boundaries in environments that suggest them, but not in more open-ended space.

For instance, some people who will touch you if you meet up in their house or yours won’t if you meet in a restaurant and sit on opposite sides of the table.

Some people will respect your physical boundaries if other people are present, but not if you are alone. Or vice versa.

Similarly, if the boundaries she pushes are all or mostly physical, it might be that spending time with her online works better than hanging out with her in person.

It’s also ok if you decide that you’d really rather not spend time with her. Even if you like spending time with her sometimes, it might not be worth it. Most people who do deal-breaking things are also pleasant to be around some of the time. I don’t know what you should do, because I don’t know you or your situation – it’s up to you and how you feel and what you decide.

Arguing isn’t always ok

January 3, 2014June 21, 2021 Real Social Skills

A reader asked:

… If someone acts defensive and argues when you criticize them for touching you, and from then on is very careful not to touch you, then they’re just nervous and don’t like criticism. That’s fine. The problem would be if they really act as if they have a right to touch you after you’ve asked them not to. Or actually the problem would be if they keep doing it, for whatever reason.

realsocialskills said:

I don’t think it is at all ok to be that resistant to criticism.

Sometimes it’s ok and right to argue if you think someone is misjudging you, but it’s not ok to have that be your default response every time someone says no to you.

Especially when what they are saying is along the lines of “I don’t like being touched that way, please stop.”

It’s not ok to resist that kind of thing, and it’s especially not ok to try to get them to back down by arguing about it. People have the right not to want to be touched. People who don’t understand this and put pressure on others to accept touch from them are dangerous.

It’s definitely better to argue and then respect the boundary from then on than it is to not stop at all. But that doesn’t mean the arguing was ok to begin with. (Everyone makes mistakes, and if you find that you have argued in a boundary-violating way, the first step is to apologize.)

It’s ok that sometimes things hurt to hear; it’s not ok to try to make that hurt go away by arguing or otherwise putting pressure on someone to let you do what you want to them. It’s ok to be nervous or uncomfortable about criticism; it’s not ok to pressure someone else into making you feel better by doing what you wanted.

It can be hard to learn to hear no when you really want someone to say yes, it can be hard to learn to respect that and not push someone into something they don’t want, but it’s really, really important.

Saying no to unwanted touch

January 1, 2014June 21, 2021 Real Social Skills

A reader asked:

One of my friends has recently begun touching me a lot, either by grabbing my hand or knee etc in situations that don’t necessarily feel they warrant such contact and don’t actually feel organic.

At best this is just a case of her being too physical and making me uncomf, at worst, knowing that I’m queer, it may be that she is trying to make me her “experiment,” despite also knowing I’m in a monog. relat.

I can’t tell exactly if I’m overreacting or not but either way, if this continues, I’m not at all sure I know how to handle the situation. It’s difficult for me to imagine navigating this type of conversation, esp if I want to keep the friendship (since I know what I would do if this was a situation with a man, or someone with whom I didn’t want to maintain a friendship).

Plus, being a survivor makes navigating all of this all the more difficult. I would appreciate your advice, thank you.

realsocialskills said:

I don’t have a lot of experience defusing this kind of situation successfully, so I’m not sure my answer will be a good one.

This is my best guess:

First of all, I think you’re probably not overreacting:

When people repeatedly touch others in invasive ways, it’s usually not an accident
It’s really, really common for people to touch others in invasive ways that are just-barely-deniable
People who think others are touching them in creepy ways are usually right
This is especially true if the person who is touching you invasively *used* to only touch you in ways you were ok with

Second of all, regardless of why she’s touching you, it’s ok to want it to stop:

There are all kinds of reasons that friends sometimes don’t want to be touched in various ways
If you don’t want her touching your leg or holding your hand, it’s absolutely your right to have it stop
If she’s doing this unintentionally, telling her in the moment to stop might solve the problem
Friends do sometimes inadvertently violate the boundaries of friends, *and if they respect their friends, they stop when they find out it isn’t welcome*

Things you might say (possibly in combination with pulling away or pushing her hand away from where you don’t want it to be):

“I don’t like that”
“I don’t want to hold hands”
“Please don’t touch my leg”
And if it is repeated, you might add “I meant it”.

She might respond by angrily denying that she’s doing anything wrong. That’s a sign that something is seriously wrong:

Telling her to stop touching you in ways you don’t like is not an accusation
It just means telling her that you don’t like it and want it to stop
It might hurt to hear that, because nobody likes hearing that they’ve done something wrong. But if she lashes out at you about it, that’s a sign that she feels entitled to your body
And whether or not it’s sexually motivated, that’s a major problem
I wrote this post and this post about that kind of reaction

Captain Awkward also has a post on unwanted and possibly-sexual touching from friends which might be helpful.

Trust is never guaranteed

December 22, 2013June 21, 2021 Real Social Skills

A reader asked:

Way to regain trust after losing it?

realsocialskills answered:

First and foremost, you have to accept that you might not get the trust back. When you’ve lost someone’s trust, it’s their decision whether or not they ever want to trust you again.

Nothing you do can guarantee that they will ever trust you again.

But, what you can do is work on being trustworthy. Whether or not this person ever trusts you again, it’s worth doing and will help you to treat others better and maintain good relationships.

Respect that person’s boundaries.

If they’ve asked you not to contact them, don’t. (Not even to apologize).
If they’ve asked you to avoid particular methods of contact (eg phone), don’t use them

Understand what you did.

If the person wants to tell you, listen
If they don’t, think about it on your own
(Actually, think through it even if they do want to tell you; you have to develop your own understanding; repeating what they say and apologizing isn’t enough.)
You can get a lot of understanding by thinking
If there are things you can read relevant to what happened, that can also be helpful

Apologize if apologies are welcome.

But do not do this if they have told you not to contact them
And do not do it with an expectation that this means they will forgive you and trust you again
Apologies can be important, but they aren’t magic
And they’re particularly not magical incantations which make people trust you
What they do is communicate that you know that you did wrong, and that you care about not repeating that mistake
That isn’t necessarily going to be enough; whether it is enough is ultimately their decision
But it’s still a worthwhile message
And knowing that you understand what you did wrong sometimes does make it possible for people to trust you again

If you have personal demons that are making it hard for you to act ways that make it safe for others to trust you, work on addressing that:

Do not explain this to the other person in order to deflect criticism or downplay what you did.
They are not responsible for helping you to get past the things that are currently making you unsafe for them to be around
But do recognize it as a contributing factor and do what you can to fix it
Some common examples:
Having trouble being honest about your boundaries
Being hurt and angry when your friends don’t do what you want them to do
Finding it emotionally threatening when your friends have significant bonds with other people
Finding criticism and conflict unbearably threatening to your self image
Disability shame. If you’re trying to avoid facing your disability or mental illness, it’s hard to accurately predict what you can and can’t do. It can also be hard to be honest with others, and this can cause a lot of relationship problems.
None of these things mean you’re doomed, but they might mean you have what to work on

If you have access to a safe and insightful therapist, it might be worth considering getting professional help:

Therapy is not a viable option for everyone
It is also not a magical solution. Going to therapy will not, in itself, make you trustworthy. It’s one method of support that can help you find ways forward
If therapy is not a viable an option for you, you are not doomed; you can still work on learning how to be ok and treat others right
But for some people, therapy can make this much, much easier
If you think that might be the case for you, look into it

“I can’t” is an important phrase

December 19, 2013June 14, 2021 Real Social Skills

A reader asked:

… I think it’s more empowering to say “I decided to stop” than to say “I can’t”. It’s OK to stop when there’s still a tiny chance that you might have been able to succeed.

realsocialskills answered

There are different reasons why people decide to stop doing things.

One reason is that they reach the conclusion that they probably aren’t capable of doing the thing. Probably

That’s different than reaching the conclusion that they don’t want to do it, or that it’s not worth doing, or that they’d rather do something else.

Actually this reminds me of something I’ve seen – often disabled kids who can’t do something will pretend that they’re refusing to do the thing. And that they’re refusing to do the thing on purpose in order to provoke the teachers. When everyone involved thinks that’s what’s happening, things can get really bad really quickly.

(Particularly if the thing is something like a kid going nonverbal and pretending that they’re refusing to speak and are just making animal noises to be rude).

Inability to do things is real, and it’s important for people to know their limits and take them seriously.

Acknowledging limits makes it much more possible to do things than pretending not to have any.

Ignoring reality isn’t empowering.

And it’s legitimate to say “I can’t” when what you mean is “it’s possible that I might technically be able to do it, but it’s risky and dangerous, and I couldn’t function if I took that kind of risk routinely”.

(This is in fact a meaning of “can’t” used by people without disabilities all the time.)

Relying on others for reassurance

December 4, 2013June 14, 2021 Real Social Skills

A reader said:

When people rely on the reassurance of someone else it can be very dangerous for everyone involved.

realsocialskills said:

It depends a lot on the context.

I think there are different kinds of relying on others.

There’s relying on others when you know that your perceptions in some areas are unreliable:

If you know that you often think things are awful when they aren’t, or that you’ve done something horribly wrong when you haven’t, checking in with others who you trust to have a more reliable perspective can be a good strategy
You have to be careful who you trust this way
It has to be someone who is both trustworthy and genuinely willing to do this for you
And when one or both elements are missing, this can go badly wrong.
But this is a strategy that works really well for a lot of people, under the right circumstances

Then there’s the kind of relying on others that’s about needing universal approval:

Sometimes people have a self image that depends on other people constantly approving of them
And reassuring them that they are good and what they are doing is good
This gets really bad really quickly
And often leads to people on both sides of it manipulating each other in destructive ways, and pretty much always leads to one or the other person doing so
It’s important to be able to accept that not everyone will like you, and that even people who like you will not always like what you do and will be upset with you from time to time
People who can’t accept this cause a lot of problems for themselves and others

These things are very different, but they tend to get conflated.