boundaries – Page 10 – Real Social Skills

Offerring support doesn’t always mean agreeing with someone

August 27, 2013June 21, 2021 Real Social Skills

A reader asked:

One thing I really have a problem with is if a friend that I’m really close to is privately venting to me about someone or a situation and going on and on about it and I want to support them – but even from what they’re saying I think they might be in the wrong or at least not looking at it from the right angle. Disagreeing with people is hard, especially when it might not be your place to say anything? I’m not 100% sure what I’m asking about here.

This can be hard. I think sometimes it can help to ask explicitly if it’s ok to comment.

For instance:

“I think you might not be seeing this from the right angle. Could I tell you how I’m seeing it?”
“Would you like advice?”
“Do you want advice, or just sympathy?”

It’s ok not to agree with your friends. It’s also ok to sympathize with someone even if you think they’re probably making mistakes that are contributing to the situation. And it’s also ok not to actively agree with them, even if you’re being sympathetic.

Like, there’s a difference between weighing in and saying why they’re right and the other person’s wrong, and saying things like:

“That sounds really hard.”
“Are you holding up ok?”
“I hope things get better.”

Sympathy doesn’t necessarily mean agreement.

Of course, it’s also possible for friends to be so far over the line that it’s wrong to offer sympathy in that situation. I think in that situation, you do have to say something, but it doesn’t always have to be extreme or invasive. Sometimes it can just be like:

“This conversation is making me really uncomfortable; can we change the subject?”
“I don’t want to talk about this.”
“I’m really not comfortable discussing that with you.”

Sometimes it might mean directly confronting them (eg: If they’re behaving in a really creepy way towards someone else and want to tell you all about it), but I get the sense that this isn’t the kind of situation you’re talking about.

Breakup aftermaths when other things are going on

August 23, 2013June 21, 2021 Real Social Skills

A reader asked:

I’m going through a breakup and am dealing with pretty crippling anxiety and depression despite the fact that my ex and I didn’t end on bad terms. I am a very socially awkward normally and my ADHD sometimes causes me to act impulsively.

I have three questions:

How/when/who is it appropriate for me to discuss my problems with (Like when people ask how I’m doing I normally lie but I think that may not be good for me.)

How long should I wait before spending time with my ex, seeing him is like tearing off a band-aid and

What is a good way for me to cope with my loneliness when my social anxiety prevents me from being able to be around most people?

Realsocialskills answered:

A few thoughts:

First and foremost, there is no one solution to this problem. You’re going to have to slowly find ways of making your life better. You’ll probably feel better if you think of it that way.

I get the sense that you might be thinking of the problem as “How do I get over my ex, stop being so impulsive, not be depressed, not be anxious, and not be so isolated, so that everything will be ok?” That’s a really overwhelming problem, but it’s not actually the problem you have to solve. The problem you have to solve is “What things can I do to start making my life better?”

And there are a lot of things that might be worth trying, and other things worth avoiding. I’ll start with the things I think you should avoid:

Don’t rely on your ex for emotional support:

It’s not good for either of you
Part of what being broken up means is that you need to separate emotionally and regain your own space
Relying on your ex for emotional support makes it damn near impossible to do this
Especially if you don’t have much else in the way of support
It is not your ex’s responsibility to make your life ok post-breakup
It’s probably not a good idea to spend time with your ex until you’re past the point of the breakup feeling like an excruciating loss when you see them

Respect other people’s boundaries:

Someone asking you how you are isn’t necessarily an invitation to share
“How are you” is usually a fairly meaningless socially greeting.
Sometimes people ask because they are concerned and really want to know. These are usually people you are already close to, or people you’re related to.
If you’re not sure whether they really want to know or if it’s just social noise, you can say “It’s kind of hard right now” or something similar, and see if they ask follow up questions
If they ask follow up questions, it’s usually ok to tell them what’s going on
But keep in mind that it’s ok for people to decide they don’t want to be your support system
And it’s important to respect that

Meetup.com

Meetup.com can bee a good way to meet new people in an unthreatening way
It’s easier to talk to new people when you know that you share an interest and are gathering to talk about it or do something
It’s also often ok to go and listen to other people talk
And it’s ok to leave if you need to

Interacting with people on the internet

A lot of people who can’t interact easily in person get a lot of social interactions from Tumblr
This counts as social interaction. Don’t devalue it
It also might help to seek out some other type of forum, like a message board about your interest/fandom/whatever
Email lists can be good too, especially if they’re the kind that don’t have archives that can be googled
Even with people you know, it might be easier to interact on chat or Facebook or some other internet based way

Religion

If you have a faith tradition, it might help you to go to church/temple/synagogue/mosque/place of worship.
If you have a bad experience with the place of worship you grew up with, you might be able to find one that works better for you
Most communities have a number of places of worship. Some of them probably have nice people
Unitarian Universalist churches work for some people who don’t feel comfortable in the organized forms of the religion they grew up with, but don’t want to reject it either
Going to a place of worship can be a way to meet people
It can also be a way to be around people without having to interact too much directly
For some people, being near people without having much conversation can be a way to feel less lonely without anxiety-inducing pressure
There also might be things you can volunteer to help with that aren’t too socially intense
There also might be study groups that work for you, because you can talk about the topic or just listen
Prayer can also help some people. Talking to God can help, even if you can’t talk to people.
Organized religion is not right for everyone, but it can be really good for some people

Reading fiction or watching TV

For some people, stories are a good way to cope with loneliness
Reading or watching stories is sort of like vicarious social interaction
It can also help you to learn a bit more about people and relationships
There’s a reason why lonely isolated kids coping with growing up by reading novels is such a pervasive trope
This isn’t helpful for everyone. Fiction can be really misleading and not everyone can understand it. But for some people, it can be good.

Therapy is helpful for some people

Some people find it helpful to talk to a therapist
Sometimes therapists can help people manage social anxiety and depression better
Or figure out executive functioning strategies
Or learn appropriate boundaries that make friendship easier
Therapy is not a good idea for everyone.
For some people, it isn’t helpful.
For some people, it’s a matter of finding the right therapist
For others, it’s actively anti-helpful and damaging.
For some people, it’s sort of helpful but not worth the costs
Therapy is something that can help some people to get support that helps them to figure out how to improve their life incrementally
Only you know whether therapy is a good idea for you (and it’s ok to decide to stop going to therapy if you decide that would be better)
In any case, therapy isn’t magic and it’s not a cure. There isn’t actually such a thing as “getting help” and that fixing your life. There’s just trying things and seeing what works.

Medication can be helpful for some people

Anxiety, depression, and ADHD are all conditions that some people find easier to manage with medication
For some people, medication is useful in the short term even if it’s not good in the long term
Some people don’t benefit from being on medications regularly, but do benefit from having medication available for occasional use to control anxiety or panic attacks
Medication is not right for everyone.
For some people it doesn’t work
For some people, it works, but has intolerable side effects
For some people, it works, but it takes a lot of experimentation to find the right medications and doses
Only you can decide if medication is right for you
Medication is not a cure or a way to become a different kind of person. It’s a strategy for managing things that works well for some people
If medication doesn’t work for you, that doesn’t imply that you don’t really have depression/ADHD/anxiety.
It also doesn’t imply that your condition is mild
Or that you’re not serious about making your life better
All it means is that medication is not a good strategy for you

Getting past “I’m not being abusive!!!” and getting perspective on how you’re treating people

August 20, 2013June 21, 2021 Real Social Skills

A reader asked:

re: ‘I’m not being abusive!’ – I’m concerned I’ve done this in the past because I grew up around someone very verbally/emotionally abusive and am trying to work through those behaviors. I feel like I flag myself sometimes that way to check in with others, but get the feeling this is a really bad way of dealing with things. Any advice on what I can do in these situations when I’m very worried I *am* being abusive and want help to stop?

I think there’s a couple of things:

First of all, recognize the difference between asking for feedback and asking for reassurance:

Trying to find out whether something is wrong is one thing.
Trying to get someone to reassure you that nothing is wrong is a different thing.
It’s important to be open to the possibility that something is actually wrong.
If you’re not open to that possibility, then don’t ask.
Because pressuring someone to tell you that everything is ok makes things worse
Work on learning how to be open to the possibility that things are wrong
And ask in a way that makes it clear you actually want to know.
Eg, don’t say things like this: “You’d tell me if something was wrong, right?” “Nothing’s wrong, is it?”
Things like this are better: “I feel like something might be bothering you. Is something wrong?”, “Did I mess something up? I feel like I might have.”

Don’t rely too much on people you might be hurting to teach you how to act right:

It’s important to listen
But it’s also important not to make them responsible for your actions
You are responsible for learning how to treat people well. People you might be hurting are not responsible for teaching you how to stop.

Get outside perspective of some sort:

Outside perspective is important because it is a way to get feedback without putting pressure on people you might be hurting to tell you things are ok
It’s also an important way to protect yourself against gaslighting. People who worry that they might be abusers are particularly susceptible to gaslighting. Some gaslighters prey on this worry really aggressively.
It’s important to care about treating people well. It’s also important to care about protecting yourself and being treated well.
It’s also a way to learn things that no one involved knows
Outside perspective is important for other reasons I’m having trouble articulating
For some people, therapy is a helpful way to get outside perspective. Therapy is not for everyone, and it can be actively harmful for some people, but it works really well for people it works for
For some people, it helps to talk things over with friends outside the situation
Reading fiction and watching TV can also be helpful
So can reading blogs and books that are explicitly about interpersonal dynamics, although unfortunately there are not many good ones.

Any of y’all have other suggestions?

Some thoughts on working for friends

August 15, 2013June 14, 2021 Real Social Skills

Working for friends can destroy the friendship really easily. It can work out well, but it is risky. It’s important to not just assume that it will work out fine because you like each other.

An equal friendship is a very different type of relationship than employer-employee. Having both relationships with someone is complicated.

There are three major things I know of that can happen:

The boss uses their position as an employer to pressure their friends into doing things that aren’t work-related, or aren’t within the employee’s actual duties.

eg: getting a friend to plan the office Christmas party and cook all the food
getting a friend to cover lots of shifts that other people flake on

The worker relies on the friendship to get away with things that aren’t normally acceptable from an employee.

eg: stealing stuff from the office
talking down to other workers
bossing around coworkers inappropriately
or having a much better work schedule than everyone else
or showing up late all the time
or, more generally speaking, using friendship to avoid criticism
including taking it personally when the boss-friend says they’re doing something wrong

If you’re working for a friend, or employing a friend, make sure you can handle the different power relationship that goes along with employment. And that you can keep track of which things are work contexts, and which things are friendship contexts.

The power of maybe

August 8, 2013June 14, 2021 Real Social Skills

Being able to say yes is important. Being able to say no is important.

Being able to say maybe is also important.

It’s usually ok not to know what you want, even if others want you to decide right away. You don’t always have to know reasons. It’s ok to just feel unsure. Feeling uncertain is an ok reason not to say yes right away.

Sometimes there’s legitimate time pressure and people do need you to make a decision right away. It’s ok to say no if you’re not sure.

And when there isn’t time pressure, it’s ok to say maybe. Even if that annoys others.

Crucial differences

August 3, 2013June 14, 2021 Real Social Skills

These things are different:

Wanting something to be true
Wanting to think something is true
Wanting someone else to feel like something is true
Wanting reassurance that something is true

An example:

Interacting with someone consensually
Feeling like your interactions are consensual
Having that person think of the interactions as consensual
Having that person reassure you that things are consensual.

And another:

Not wanting to put someone in danger
Wanting to feel like a safe person
Wanting someone to feel safe
Wanting someone to reassure you that they feel safe

And these:

Seeking to avoid abusing anyone
Seeking to avoid seeing yourself as an abusive person
Wanting others to see you as someone who doesn’t abuse others
Wanting others to reassure you that you’re not the kind of person who abuses people

And this too:

Respecting someone’s boundaries
Feeling like you’re a person who respects boundaries
Wanting someone to feel as though their boundaries are being respected
Wanting someone to reassure you that you’re not crossing any lines

If you don’t understand the difference, you’re dangerous to people you have power over.

Because feelings and perceptions can be manipulated without changing the underlying reality.

Making people feel safe isn’t enough; you also have to create real safety. Making people tell you that you’re not crossing a line isn’t enough; you have to actually care about their boundaries. Seeing yourself as a non-abusive person isn’t enough; you have to actively pay attention to treating people well.

If you want to do right by people, you have to care about the reality.

Some things I think I know about dirty jokes

July 24, 2013June 20, 2021 Real Social Skills

This post I think is not quite right. It’s something I know a bit about, but there are parts I don’t understand too. Anyway, here are some things I think I know about dirty jokes.

Jokes about the following subjects are usually considered dirty (some of these jokes are relatively innocuous):

Sex
Masturbation
Genitals
Breasts
Defecation
Urination
Vomiting
Drinking alcohol
Doing drugs
These jokes can be good or bad, it depends on the joke, and the context in which it is told.

Rude jokes that are dirty because they deal with impolite subject matter can be ok to tell in some circumstances, but not others:

There are three basic situations in which these jokes are usually ok:

People who are social equals and have an equal friendship, and both like telling rude jokes to one another, or:
People in a profession that deals with impolite areas, making trade-related jokes to colleagues (eg: people who work concert security making jokes to one another about bodily functions and weird things people do at shows)
When someone is doing a comedy routine and other people are listening to it on purpose

It’s almost always a bad idea to tell rude jokes to people you have power over:

Partly this is because it’s not ok to tell rude jokes to people who dislike rude jokes. And people you have power over might not feel comfortable or safe telling you to stop.
It’s also threatening in a few ways that go beyond this.
Telling rude jokes is a sign that you regard someone as a social equal, and emphatically expect that they share that view
This can be a sign that you aren’t willing to acknowledge the power you have over them. That’s threatening.
It can also be sexually threatening. The rules about dirty jokes are part of the rules about sexual boundaries. Telling a dirty joke in an inappropriate contexts is often the first step a sexual predator takes in testing someone’s willingness to enforce sexual boundaries. Even if you have no such intent, telling a rude joke, especially a sexual rude joke, can be seen this way.
That’s especially true if when someone objects to the joke, you tell them to lighten up because it was just a joke.

There’s also another kind of dirty joke: the hate joke. Hate jokes are about hurting people. Hate jokes say bad things about other groups, or express violent desires, then make somewhat more socially acceptable by phrasing it as a joke:

Jokes that contain slur words are usually, but not always, hate jokes
Jokes that rely on asserting that stereotypes are true are usually hate jokes
For instance, dumb blonde jokes.
Or “ironic” racism (eg: telling a racist joke, where the joke is that it’s so hilarious that someone who is so not-racist would say such a thing)
Some hate jokes are explicitly violent.
That kind of joke normalizes violence. The violent abuser in that joke is the sympathetic character.

Hate jokes are only ok when it’s actually ok to hate the people the joke is about. That’s almost never the case. But sometimes hate jokes about an abuser, or general hate jokes about rapists, can be ok jokes to make.
There’s a difference between telling hate jokes with the intent of harming members of the target group, and telling hate jokes without active ill intent because you think they’re funny. But it’s a difference of degree, not kind.
Sometimes members of target groups tell hate jokes as a form of self-hatred. That’s also a difference of degree
Sometimes members of the target groups tell hate jokes as a way of mocking the way people hate them. This is a difference of kind, not degree.

Basically, the bottom line is that it still matters what you’re saying if you’re making a joke while you’re saying it.

Boundaries when anger issues come from being triggered

July 23, 2013June 21, 2021 Real Social Skills

rosewhite6280 said:

Some people with anger problems do so because they themselves are being triggered. Help them deal with their past problem; compassion helps.

That’s good advice in some situations, but I don’t think it’s applicable in the situation they asked about. I think what you’re saying makes a lot of sense in situations in which you’re responsible for another person’s physical and emotional wellbeing. For instance, if you’re raising a kid, or working with a kid who has been through traumatic things, the first thing to keep in mind is that they’re doing things for reasons and that compassion goes a long way.

But you can’t have that relationship with every traumatized person you encounter. It’s not appropriate with a roommate.

And that person was asking specially about what to do about the fact that they are triggered by their roommate’s depression and anger. It was a question about how to make a living situation work, not a question about how to make a support relationship work.

Getting involved enough to help someone deal with their past problem is a completely different kind of relationship than they were asking about. And there’s no indication that either they or their roommate wants that.

And, when you are triggered by someone even at a relatively distant relationship, it’s generally not a good idea to establish an even closer relationship with that person.

Their roommate’s past is not their problem, and helping their roommate get over their past is not their responsibility.

“I would never abuse anyone!”

July 23, 2013June 20, 2021 Real Social Skills

This kind of conversation is a major red flag:

Bob: I’m going to go to the mall.
Stan: Don’t go to the mall. I want you to stay home.
Bob: Um, why not? I need new trousers.
Stan: Why are you taking that tone?! Are you saying I’m abusive? You wouldn’t be upset if I wasn’t abusive, so you must think I’m abusing you. I’d never abuse anyone! How dare you?!

Another version:

Bob: Could you not make jokes about my weight? It makes me feel bad.
Stan: I would never do anything to hurt you! How dare you call this bullying!

It’s especially bad when:

It happens every time Stan and Bob want different things.
Because it gets to the point where it’s impossible for Bob to say no without accusing Stan of being abusive
Or where Bob can’t express a preference that conflicts with Stan’s.
This means that Bob has to always do what Stan wants, or else call Stan a bad person
This is an awful way to live

In a mutually respectful relationship:

People want different things from time to time
People hurt each other in minor ways
People make mistakes, and need to be told about them
Everyone understands this, and can accept that their friend/partner/whatever wants something different, or is upset about something they did
They understand that wanting different things, or being upset about something, is not an accusation of abuse.

If someone close to you claims that you’re accusing them of being abusive every time you have a conflict with them, they probably are, in fact, being abusive.